64tbird asked me to take a look at this question. She seems to think I can answer it. She has such funny ideas some times.
I will by way of "Limited warranty" and introduction say that I'm a practicing Orthodox Jew, so whatever I say, will be radically different from the classic Western POV, and no, we Jews aren't as bigoted as the Church, in thinking that only Jews will go to heaven - so welcome :-p (I also perused your LJ a bit, so I think I also know what brought this question on. Sigh. Compassion)
[ <Mini-Rant>
I know you meant no harm by using the term "God of Abraham", and I am after-all an uninvited guest in your Journal, but I thought it best to point out that many Jews find such terms as "God of Abraham", "Abrahamic Faiths (http://www.livejournal.com/users/swisscelt/39832.html?thread=142488#t142488)" or the more common "Judeo-Christian (http://www.livejournal.com/users/xiphias/86040.html)" extremely offensive [shallow and ignorant]. Both of those links are to [somewhat heavy] discussions I recently had with two LJ friends regarding those class of terms. This is not to say I was offended, but to "educate" people on this issue.
</Mini-Rant> ]
I think, in fact that my answer to your question might illustrate this nicely, as our description of Heaven/Hell is rather different from Christian dogma. This will be long-winded and round-about, because that's how my mind works, and Jewish Thought is very non-linear. Enough dodging the actual question ;-) ...
Heaven - Considering that being dead is an entry requirement, and having left the base-animal body behind, this state of existence is entirely of the spirit (no cute bodies with wings ;-) playing the harp, no feasts or such either). We are told that all that will "remain" to "visually" "represent" us is the "face". This doesn't translate well into English because we view the face in the exact opposite way of it's aspect in English. In English "face" is the OUTSIDE of the object, a layer and mask worn on the outside to protect. While in Jewish Thought the Hebrew word for the "body part called 'face'" is {Pahnim} which means "inside", in that our [entire] face projects who we are. It's not for nothing that we have universal cross-cultural expressions such as "... looks like a crook".
BECAUSE of this major shift, between life and "life after death", in that we are currently locked into a physical world with physically oriented & limited senses. We can't possibly comprehend what existence as a bodiless entity is like. So any possible explanation would be metaphorical at best! Because of this we more humble [?], less "marketing oriented", Jews are reluctant to even try. Also unlike Christian dogma, we verily try to avoid the "be good" [ ==> "be saved" ] ==> "go to heaven" hype that Christians so adore [We Jews "do good", not because this is "good" but because G-d commands this (but that, and the related statement that "Judaism" isn't really a religion at all, is a completely separate [long] discussion)]. One such explanation is that:
in heaven we will "bask in the glory" of the Light that is G-d, and that we will be given/able to comprehend G-d's Great Plan to the ability inherent in the level of righteousness we have achieved in our lives (this is not a quote).
This "basking" is said to be the ultimate pleasure, the "ultimate good" that G-d can give us. That any bodily pleasure is so pallid in comparison, as to make our bodily pleasures look pathetic. But what exactly that means in terms that a corporally bound soul can understand, is currently beyond me, and probably inherently incomprehensible.
We Jews do our best to not fear /dwell-on problems /issues /questions that are beyond us in this life, so why would I worry myself about a plane of existence so totally beyond this one?
Really interesting - the part that I totally hear is the face description. I often say that I see people inside out - which is to say that I seem to see who they are and I can't give you a physical description for my life. Even close friends. Even myself. (I posted in my own journal about catching sight of myself in the mirror during a migraine, and being surprised that I didn't look like a hag out of a Disney movie with purple skin, wrinkles, and bulging green bloodshot eyes, 'cos that;s how I felt.)
I may have to read your post again, and remind myself not to try to read more into the words than is there.
Oh - and I didn't think you could Answer the question so much as share a perspective that I personally find interesting. I asked you because you are articulate, and because I like you and trust you and I trusted you to be able to offer something that might help Gina see things from other perspectives. :-)
Which is making me think about conversations with Jette and cultural blending in America and I think I need to go to my journal and pose some questions of my own...
Thank you for your very insightful answer and for correcting me in my incorrect use of terminology. Believe me when I say there was no offence intended.
I apologize for not responding to your post earlier, but I haven't had the time to properly read it, let alone properly respond. As it stands I only have a few more minutes before puppy's awake and I need to start defending the furniture again.
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Hello
I will by way of "Limited warranty" and introduction say that I'm a practicing Orthodox Jew, so whatever I say, will be radically different from the classic Western POV, and no, we Jews aren't as bigoted as the Church, in thinking that only Jews will go to heaven - so welcome :-p (I also perused your LJ a bit, so I think I also know what brought this question on. Sigh. Compassion)
[ <Mini-Rant> </Mini-Rant> ]
I think, in fact that my answer to your question might illustrate this nicely, as our description of Heaven/Hell is rather different from Christian dogma. This will be long-winded and round-about, because that's how my mind works, and Jewish Thought is very non-linear. Enough dodging the actual question ;-) ...
Heaven - Considering that being dead is an entry requirement, and having left the base-animal body behind, this state of existence is entirely of the spirit (no cute bodies with wings ;-) playing the harp, no feasts or such either). We are told that all that will "remain" to "visually" "represent" us is the "face". This doesn't translate well into English because we view the face in the exact opposite way of it's aspect in English. In English "face" is the OUTSIDE of the object, a layer and mask worn on the outside to protect. While in Jewish Thought the Hebrew word for the "body part called 'face'" is {Pahnim} which means "inside", in that our [entire] face projects who we are. It's not for nothing that we have universal cross-cultural expressions such as "... looks like a crook".
BECAUSE of this major shift, between life and "life after death", in that we are currently locked into a physical world with physically oriented & limited senses. We can't possibly comprehend what existence as a bodiless entity is like. So any possible explanation would be metaphorical at best! Because of this we more humble [?], less "marketing oriented", Jews are reluctant to even try. Also unlike Christian dogma, we verily try to avoid the "be good" [ ==> "be saved" ] ==> "go to heaven" hype that Christians so adore [We Jews "do good", not because this is "good" but because G-d commands this (but that, and the related statement that "Judaism" isn't really a religion at all, is a completely separate [long] discussion)]. One such explanation is that: This "basking" is said to be the ultimate pleasure, the "ultimate good" that G-d can give us. That any bodily pleasure is so pallid in comparison, as to make our bodily pleasures look pathetic. But what exactly that means in terms that a corporally bound soul can understand, is currently beyond me, and probably inherently incomprehensible.
We Jews do our best to not fear /dwell-on problems /issues /questions that are beyond us in this life,
so why would I worry myself about a plane of existence so totally beyond this one?
I hope my answer helps you, at least somewhat.
Hmmmm
Date: 2003-08-11 06:41 am (UTC)I may have to read your post again, and remind myself not to try to read more into the words than is there.
Thanks, Shmuel.
Re: Hello
Date: 2003-08-11 06:51 am (UTC)Which is making me think about conversations with Jette and cultural blending in America and I think I need to go to my journal and pose some questions of my own...
Re: Hello
Date: 2003-08-11 11:24 am (UTC)I apologize for not responding to your post earlier, but I haven't had the time to properly read it, let alone properly respond. As it stands I only have a few more minutes before puppy's awake and I need to start defending the furniture again.
Hope to hear more from you in the future.